Other than Lebanese, Mexico seems lacking in elite segmentation. Turkey and Mexico have a number of similarities, but on the PISA test, there's a tiny but distinct group of very high scorers in Turkey but less so in Mexico. One theory is the Counter-Reformation was so effective in Mexico it blocked the kind of elite formation processes that were conducive to Protestantism in Europe (e.g., Huguenots).
it seems there is also difference in between median scores of mexico and turkey.
- In Turkey, 74% of students attained at least Level 2 proficiency in reading. In Mexico, 55% of students attained at least Level 2 proficiency in reading. Some 63% of students in Turkey attained Level 2 or higher in mathematics. Some 44% of students in Mexico attained Level 2 or higher in mathematics.
"The truth is that, in many cases, elite groups are genetically different from the rest of the population."
This is, without a doubt, true. And one of the more advantageous genetic traits is higher cognition. But at least one situation that some elite groups use is a lack of a positive trait: integrity. An absence of integrity has given some elite groups enormous wealth and power. I believe Netanyahu is an excellent example of gaining power through a lack of integrity. There are numerous examples of this in the power structure of the United States.
This was a well constructed, data-driven macro picture piece. Your political opinions add zero to this discussion. As my Statistics professor said incessantly, "The plural of anecdote is not data."
No one gives a shit that you think Bibi Netanyahu lacks integrity. I have zero idea why you think that; moreover, your skewed perceptions are irrelevant from a debate point of view.
When I read that, all I thought was "One more loser who has failed and in his bitterness now believes anyone who succeeds must have done so in some kind of underhanded fashion."
Absent anything to the contrary, that is my guiding assumption.
Whining about "the current power structure" is what losers do. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen.
I was responding to the gratuitous idiocy written by @Realist. He is the one who made the comments about Bibi succeeding in an underhanded way. Aporia writes smart stuff bigly.
"No one gives a shit that you think Bibi Netanyahu lacks integrity. I have zero idea why you think that; moreover, your skewed perceptions are irrelevant from a debate point of view."
If you are trying to be serious, you are one of the dumbest fucks who ever drew a breath.
"When I read that, all I thought was "One more loser who has failed and in his bitterness now believes anyone who succeeds must have done so in some kind of underhanded fashion."
I made it quite clear that I do not believe that everyone who succeeds is underhanded, but I do believe you are a dumb fuck.
It needs to be the single basis of respect, criminals need to be ruthlessly mocked and degraded until even a manly attractive criminal, high or low IQ is so stigmatized and shamed he can't get chicks.
Perhaps they need to be imprisoned for longer to cull the spread of their genes. We domesticated ourselves in the past (probably) so we can do it again.
The US already has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world. How many more resources do we have to expend in locking people up? God forbid we should look at the root causes of crime and address those.
Derision, satire and mockery are great ways to deal with obvious problems. This tactic helped abolish manly dueling, for example, which led to so many senseless deaths. But the ability to trick people is not easily discerned. Sociopaths need to understand that it is not in their best interest to cheat because they will get caught and go to jail, that following the rules will bring them more benefits than cheating. We don’t have that rule culture anymore.
Don't confuse Netanyahu's criminal behavior with a lack of integrity. He wouldn't be where he is if he wasn't capable of convincing many people, including his opponents, that he can be relied upon. He may have succumbed to the temptation of using his position for personal gain, but that's a side effect and not the reason for his success.
If Netanyahu finds himself out of power, it won't be because other people don't trust him or because he's abused his position. It will be because they disagree with him.
Doesn’t it depend on how you’re defining integrity? Isn’t it possible that Netanyahu is from his perspective “doing what it takes” to ensure a future for his people?
Likewise, western elites might believe that their policies are what’s necessary to preserve their countries or even the planet as a whole. Integrity as a concept makes more sense in interpersonal relationships, I think.
just want to make a minor clarification on the bengali data
- the original surname list dates to the period of a united bengal, which was (at the time) about 50% muslim and 50% hindu
- the clark et al graph is from late 20th century west bengal, which is 75% hindu and 25% muslim, and 1/3rd of the modern population of bengalis (2/3rd of which is in bangladesh)
Indeed, the rich are 'special.' But one should always distinguish wealth from intelligence. Not all wealthy people are intelligent, and not all intelligent people are wealthy. In fact, the preponderance of brilliant people are not wealthy. As I stated above, sadly, a lack of integrity can provide wealth and power.
In fact, there is a case to be made that the largely left leaning tendencies of the Academic cadre is precisely because in an increasingly materialistic society this academics feel that their intelectual and cognitive capacity should correspond to their wealth status. In other words, technocracy. If this is true it’s quite a discovery and tells us much about the current direction of politics and society in general.
In the UK, representation of working class people in journalism, media, etc is far lower now than 50 years ago. It’s usually attributed to middle- and upper-class blocking of opportunity, a conspiracy really. Could it be that improvements in educational attainment over the past 100 years or so fractionated off many capable people into higher classes? The working class is now a much lower percentage of the population than in the past, the residue of that distillation. (I know that sounds snobby, but my parents were solid working class, I’m middle class I suppose)
That's exactly what you would expect in a meritocracy. Talented people move up from their class depleting the potential for future talent of that class.
"After the establishment of the Turkish republic, that country carried out a genocide of Armenians, Assyrians and Greek Christians – which was certain to have wiped out some of their wealth"
-Armenian genocide happened before establishment of the Turkish republic
Turkey has not christians but they surpassed many christian european countries in socio-economic and educational factors (pisa, gdp). Additionally we shouldnt forget Turkey has significant mena pop(kurds arabs etc.) Western regions of Turkey are more developed.
Amy Chua wrote about this almost 20 years ago in her book "World on Fire". She talks about "market dominant" minorities like Chinese in Southeast Asia, Jews in Europe/US, Indians in Africa, etc. There was no talk of genes in that book though. The research on genetic transmission of social status like Clark's came later.
Amy "Tiger Mom" Chua herself is from an elite group. Her father is the famous Leon Chua, professor of electrical engineer at Berkeley and made many important discoveries in EE. She married an Ashkenazi Jewish Yale professor to continue their bloodline.
You need religion to keep the elite group together over the long run. That's how Brahmins and Jews can keep their bloodlines. Without religions, you will have somebody like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk spreading their genes to the wrong places.
Current Western Civ is a slave society to Zionism. The Asians do well here as they have not received the same level of MKUltra programming, but their second geneeation heee is worthless.
Very interesting but concerning Jews 2000 years ago a few small corrections:
"It was split between groups like the Samaritans, Essenes, Zealots, and most importantly the written Torah-promoting Sadducees who had adopted Hellenistic culture, and the written and oral Torah-promoting Pharisees who opposed the adoption of any aspects of Greek culture and language."
Samaritans were already not considered part of Judaism at this time.
The idea that the Sadducees adopted Hellenistic culture and were part of the elites is based more or less on nothing. It seems to come from a confusion between the "House of Zadok", a leading priestly family, and their supporters and the Sadducees but there is no indication they had anything to do with each others.
The Pharisees were *not* the same thing as the Rabbis that came after and did not believe in any oral Torah, a concept that belongs only to Rabbinic Judaism. The Pharisees did take part in the war against Rome very actively.
The Rabbis were a marginal group until the 3rd century at least and had no influence. They retro-actively imagined they had the same influence at the beginning than they had later but it is not true.
We do not know how many Jews there were in the 1st century. 5 millions ? Why not, but the number is based on a mistake from a middle ages monk, not real data.
We do not know how many Jews converted to Christianity, we do know that the first non Jewish Christians came from the "Judaizers", pagans interested in Judaism who sometimes did convert to Judaism. They were usually women and urban elites.
A well-written, data-driven support of a hypothesis. I am not sure how broadly applicable this hypothesis is, but it has some compelling points. In support of a genetic component to success, for centuries in Europe, if a poor peasant child was smart, the way to get out of the grinding servitude of serfdom was to become a literate priest or monk which - in theory - removed a smart boy's genetics from the next generation. During that same period in Europe, education and scholarship were prized in the Jewish communities, so families wanted their girls to marry scholars and - next best - successful professionals, which meant the genes of smart males were passed down to the next generation.
Thanks very much - a really interesting article.
Other than Lebanese, Mexico seems lacking in elite segmentation. Turkey and Mexico have a number of similarities, but on the PISA test, there's a tiny but distinct group of very high scorers in Turkey but less so in Mexico. One theory is the Counter-Reformation was so effective in Mexico it blocked the kind of elite formation processes that were conducive to Protestantism in Europe (e.g., Huguenots).
it seems there is also difference in between median scores of mexico and turkey.
- In Turkey, 74% of students attained at least Level 2 proficiency in reading. In Mexico, 55% of students attained at least Level 2 proficiency in reading. Some 63% of students in Turkey attained Level 2 or higher in mathematics. Some 44% of students in Mexico attained Level 2 or higher in mathematics.
Sources:
- https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.oecd.org/pisa/publications/PISA2018_CN_MEX.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjYipinmOKCAxXzQvEDHXESBusQFnoECCcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Lo089DB56BvAcyYqH_e31
- https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.oecd.org/pisa/publications/PISA2018_CN_TUR.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjazoCfouKCAxWASvEDHWYWDqwQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw392lW2uOc8GW7mtB6ghiyv
"The truth is that, in many cases, elite groups are genetically different from the rest of the population."
This is, without a doubt, true. And one of the more advantageous genetic traits is higher cognition. But at least one situation that some elite groups use is a lack of a positive trait: integrity. An absence of integrity has given some elite groups enormous wealth and power. I believe Netanyahu is an excellent example of gaining power through a lack of integrity. There are numerous examples of this in the power structure of the United States.
This was a well constructed, data-driven macro picture piece. Your political opinions add zero to this discussion. As my Statistics professor said incessantly, "The plural of anecdote is not data."
No one gives a shit that you think Bibi Netanyahu lacks integrity. I have zero idea why you think that; moreover, your skewed perceptions are irrelevant from a debate point of view.
When I read that, all I thought was "One more loser who has failed and in his bitterness now believes anyone who succeeds must have done so in some kind of underhanded fashion."
Absent anything to the contrary, that is my guiding assumption.
Whining about "the current power structure" is what losers do. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen.
That comment seems overly personal and as well as being very rude.
If that’s what you actually think, I wonder why you bother to read Aporia’s stack.
I was responding to the gratuitous idiocy written by @Realist. He is the one who made the comments about Bibi succeeding in an underhanded way. Aporia writes smart stuff bigly.
My sincere apologies to you.
Don't hate the player; hate the poor formatting of the responses section.
:)
"No one gives a shit that you think Bibi Netanyahu lacks integrity. I have zero idea why you think that; moreover, your skewed perceptions are irrelevant from a debate point of view."
If you are trying to be serious, you are one of the dumbest fucks who ever drew a breath.
"When I read that, all I thought was "One more loser who has failed and in his bitterness now believes anyone who succeeds must have done so in some kind of underhanded fashion."
I made it quite clear that I do not believe that everyone who succeeds is underhanded, but I do believe you are a dumb fuck.
Opinions are like you...
"Opinions are like you..."
You are replying to a comment I made on December 2nd, 2023!
Now I know you are a dumb fuck.
Arrrrh, but I've read and commented too.
Seems that the way to prevent this from occurring is a strong rule of law culture.
Yes, but how do we enact that with the current power structure?
A law and order revolution?
Law has been subverted. A culture should have a strong immune system. The West has AIDS and it got it from Zionists.
The Chinese are "Zionists?"
Is there a Zionist in the room right now, Karen?
It needs to be the single basis of respect, criminals need to be ruthlessly mocked and degraded until even a manly attractive criminal, high or low IQ is so stigmatized and shamed he can't get chicks.
Perhaps they need to be imprisoned for longer to cull the spread of their genes. We domesticated ourselves in the past (probably) so we can do it again.
Why not go for castration of criminals then? :)
The US already has one of the highest incarceration rates in the world. How many more resources do we have to expend in locking people up? God forbid we should look at the root causes of crime and address those.
Derision, satire and mockery are great ways to deal with obvious problems. This tactic helped abolish manly dueling, for example, which led to so many senseless deaths. But the ability to trick people is not easily discerned. Sociopaths need to understand that it is not in their best interest to cheat because they will get caught and go to jail, that following the rules will bring them more benefits than cheating. We don’t have that rule culture anymore.
Don't confuse Netanyahu's criminal behavior with a lack of integrity. He wouldn't be where he is if he wasn't capable of convincing many people, including his opponents, that he can be relied upon. He may have succumbed to the temptation of using his position for personal gain, but that's a side effect and not the reason for his success.
If Netanyahu finds himself out of power, it won't be because other people don't trust him or because he's abused his position. It will be because they disagree with him.
Doesn’t it depend on how you’re defining integrity? Isn’t it possible that Netanyahu is from his perspective “doing what it takes” to ensure a future for his people?
Likewise, western elites might believe that their policies are what’s necessary to preserve their countries or even the planet as a whole. Integrity as a concept makes more sense in interpersonal relationships, I think.
You are living in a dream world. Most people in power are devoid of integrity.
Excellent rebuttal.
just want to make a minor clarification on the bengali data
- the original surname list dates to the period of a united bengal, which was (at the time) about 50% muslim and 50% hindu
- the clark et al graph is from late 20th century west bengal, which is 75% hindu and 25% muslim, and 1/3rd of the modern population of bengalis (2/3rd of which is in bangladesh)
also, fwiw, khan in the indian subcontinent is a acquired title and historically did connote someone who probably owned land or was in an elite service position in relation to the mughals or east indian company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khan_(title)#:~:text=The%20titles%20Khan%20and%20Khan,in%20army%20particularly%20in%20Gaud
So after all the motto "rich aren't special" is a hoax
Indeed, the rich are 'special.' But one should always distinguish wealth from intelligence. Not all wealthy people are intelligent, and not all intelligent people are wealthy. In fact, the preponderance of brilliant people are not wealthy. As I stated above, sadly, a lack of integrity can provide wealth and power.
In fact, there is a case to be made that the largely left leaning tendencies of the Academic cadre is precisely because in an increasingly materialistic society this academics feel that their intelectual and cognitive capacity should correspond to their wealth status. In other words, technocracy. If this is true it’s quite a discovery and tells us much about the current direction of politics and society in general.
Very interesting!
This is the best article I have ever read, anywhere.
In the UK, representation of working class people in journalism, media, etc is far lower now than 50 years ago. It’s usually attributed to middle- and upper-class blocking of opportunity, a conspiracy really. Could it be that improvements in educational attainment over the past 100 years or so fractionated off many capable people into higher classes? The working class is now a much lower percentage of the population than in the past, the residue of that distillation. (I know that sounds snobby, but my parents were solid working class, I’m middle class I suppose)
That's exactly what you would expect in a meritocracy. Talented people move up from their class depleting the potential for future talent of that class.
"After the establishment of the Turkish republic, that country carried out a genocide of Armenians, Assyrians and Greek Christians – which was certain to have wiped out some of their wealth"
-Armenian genocide happened before establishment of the Turkish republic
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide
Turkey has not christians but they surpassed many christian european countries in socio-economic and educational factors (pisa, gdp). Additionally we shouldnt forget Turkey has significant mena pop(kurds arabs etc.) Western regions of Turkey are more developed.
A-) Reading scores in PISA 2018
Turkey: 466
Greece: 457
Serbia: 439
Bulgaria: 420
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/b5fd1b8f-en/index.html?itemId=/content/publication/b5fd1b8f-en
*You can see similar pattern in here
https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/2022/10/national-intelli-basic-skills/
B-) gdp ppp per capita by countries
turkey: 41k~ $
greece : 39k ~ $
bulgaria: 33k~ $
montenegro: 28k $
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
C-)
Amy Chua wrote about this almost 20 years ago in her book "World on Fire". She talks about "market dominant" minorities like Chinese in Southeast Asia, Jews in Europe/US, Indians in Africa, etc. There was no talk of genes in that book though. The research on genetic transmission of social status like Clark's came later.
Amy "Tiger Mom" Chua herself is from an elite group. Her father is the famous Leon Chua, professor of electrical engineer at Berkeley and made many important discoveries in EE. She married an Ashkenazi Jewish Yale professor to continue their bloodline.
You need religion to keep the elite group together over the long run. That's how Brahmins and Jews can keep their bloodlines. Without religions, you will have somebody like Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk spreading their genes to the wrong places.
Current Western Civ is a slave society to Zionism. The Asians do well here as they have not received the same level of MKUltra programming, but their second geneeation heee is worthless.
Very interesting but concerning Jews 2000 years ago a few small corrections:
"It was split between groups like the Samaritans, Essenes, Zealots, and most importantly the written Torah-promoting Sadducees who had adopted Hellenistic culture, and the written and oral Torah-promoting Pharisees who opposed the adoption of any aspects of Greek culture and language."
Samaritans were already not considered part of Judaism at this time.
The idea that the Sadducees adopted Hellenistic culture and were part of the elites is based more or less on nothing. It seems to come from a confusion between the "House of Zadok", a leading priestly family, and their supporters and the Sadducees but there is no indication they had anything to do with each others.
The Pharisees were *not* the same thing as the Rabbis that came after and did not believe in any oral Torah, a concept that belongs only to Rabbinic Judaism. The Pharisees did take part in the war against Rome very actively.
The Rabbis were a marginal group until the 3rd century at least and had no influence. They retro-actively imagined they had the same influence at the beginning than they had later but it is not true.
We do not know how many Jews there were in the 1st century. 5 millions ? Why not, but the number is based on a mistake from a middle ages monk, not real data.
We do not know how many Jews converted to Christianity, we do know that the first non Jewish Christians came from the "Judaizers", pagans interested in Judaism who sometimes did convert to Judaism. They were usually women and urban elites.
A well-written, data-driven support of a hypothesis. I am not sure how broadly applicable this hypothesis is, but it has some compelling points. In support of a genetic component to success, for centuries in Europe, if a poor peasant child was smart, the way to get out of the grinding servitude of serfdom was to become a literate priest or monk which - in theory - removed a smart boy's genetics from the next generation. During that same period in Europe, education and scholarship were prized in the Jewish communities, so families wanted their girls to marry scholars and - next best - successful professionals, which meant the genes of smart males were passed down to the next generation.
Very interesting. In the UK even today I believe the 'aristocracy' or what remains of it are STILL connected to the Normans of 1066.
Well, yes, because until very recently marrying out of that stock threw you out of aristocracy or, at least, significantly lowered your status in it.
Seriously? How about a few counterexamples
The Biden, Clinton, and Obama families.
Where do we locate the Pelosis?
Is the status for the above, and I'm sure there's many more, are they explained by superior genetics or nepotism and mere associations?
Obama's father was a sharp Harvard trained economist from Kenya.
A friend of mine has written a related essay that talks about how hereditarianism, feedback loops, and fertility rates may affect the formation of the elite social classes and social mobility: https://brittonicmemetics.wordpress.com/2023/12/03/social-mobility/
> When the temple was destroyed after the Bar Kokhba revolt
???????