54 Comments
User's avatar
Karl Kasamon's avatar

Other considerations would be extra- nuclear DNA, specifically mitochondrial. As Kimberly Dunham Snary et al point out, mitochondrial – nuclear DNA mismatch matters. Pmcid pmc7238407

Expand full comment
Elizabeth Hamilton's avatar

I came here to make the same comment.

Expand full comment
Poncho's avatar

Did you know that this tracks with IQ deltas as well: children with a white mother and a black father have an eight-point I.Q. advantage over those with a black mother and a white father. Why? Probably for the same reason: status differences. Maybe the same impact here?

Bryan Caplan goes into detail in this very old post, Argument 1: https://www.econlib.org/archives/2007/12/gladwell_on_iq.html

Expand full comment
ben's avatar

It will be interesting to see what these results would be if the births took place in Sub-Saharan Africa.

I'm thinking about two things here

1 - The possible feeling of belonging and community

2 - Environment (weather, amount of sunlight)

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

It's the same situation in Africa. African mothers give birth earlier than European mothers:

"There is significant variation in the incidence of preterm birth worldwide. The rates of preterm birth in 184 countries in 2010 ranged from 5% in several Northern European countries to 18% in Malawi."

There seems to be a link between the SERPINH1 gene and preterm premature rupture of membranes in women of Sub-Saharan African descent.

Purisch, S. E., & Gyamfi-Bannerman, C. (2017, November). Epidemiology of preterm birth. In Seminars in perinatology (Vol. 41, No. 7, pp. 387-391). WB Saunders. https://doi.org/10.1053/j.semperi.2017.07.009

Expand full comment
ben's avatar

Good lord. I've spoken to doctors who swear that this (low natal weight) is due to systemic racism.

Expand full comment
Tacet's avatar

Excellent article Peter, thank you.

Two questions. How highly is a couple's fertility highly correlated with positive health outcomes? I'm guessing quite high, save maybe for some genetic defects that are latent? This might be too big a question for a discussion section.

Also, gestational surrogacy would avoid the harms you describe in your article. Have you written or thought much about it? Do you think it's scalable in any meaningful way?

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

Fertility correlates with the biological viability of the embryo or fetus. Only 40-50% of fertilized eggs make it to the blastocyst stage, and an even lower proportion make it all the way to birth (perhaps 30%). So a lot of natural selection occurs before birth.

Yes, there is a correlation between fertility and overall health:

"Our review of the existing literature suggests and association between male factor infertility and somatic health. The literature is consistent in findings that demonstrate higher risk of CVD. Similarly, infertile males appear to be at higher risk of chronic disease regardless of sociodemographic factors. However, the association with cancers varies based on the specific cancer examined and conflicting results exist."

Del Giudice, F., Kasman, A. M., Ferro, M., Sciarra, A., De Berardinis, E., Belladelli, F., ... & Eisenberg, M. L. (2020). Clinical correlation among male infertility and overall male health: a systematic review of the literature. Investigative and Clinical Urology, 61(4), 355. https://doi.org/10.4111/icu.2020.61.4.355

Gestational surrogates tend to come from a low socioeconomic background and thus are more prone to fast life history and early birth. Surrogacy is also expensive. A cheaper option would be to create a special breed of cow for this task.

I predict that the Chinese (or the North Koreans) would be the first to go this route.

Expand full comment
Tacet's avatar

Mum's a cow is a disturbing and promising prospect. And it makes sense that some cancers might be more common amongst relatively healthier people. Thanks for the thorough reply and cite.

Expand full comment
Karl Kasamon's avatar

Interesting article. I wonder if in the future similar analyses can be performed on divergent ethnic groups within the continent of Africa, where the genomic diversity is reported to be the greatest from among human subpopulations. Focus on primarily US populations may be nonrepresentative, since the entire US comprise us such a tiny proportion of the world’s population, but of course we all have to work around the availability heuristic.

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

I agree with you, but I'm a bit wary of the oft-cited factoid that genomic diversity is highest in Africa. Modern humans have lived longer in Africa than anywhere else, so they have accumulated a lot more "junk" variability over a longer time. I'm not convinced that African populations have more functional variability that has real-life consequences.

Expand full comment
Keith's avatar

I'm sure someone else has asked this but how does this fit with the concept of hybrid vigour?

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

In humans, fertility reaches a peak in marriages between 3rd or 4th cousins. "Closer" marriages show inbreeding depression, whereas marriages farther apart show outbreeding depression. See my article on this subject: https://www.aporiamagazine.com/p/outbreeding-depression-avenues-for

Hybrid vigor doesn't exist in our species. It is generally found in species that are developmentally less complex, particularly plants.

I know, I know. "But everybody says ..." Certain ideas gain traction because they are compatible with a certain zeitgeist.

Expand full comment
Keith's avatar

Thank you. A great reply.

Expand full comment
Chanda Chisala's avatar

Nonsense.

Firstly, you seem unaware of studies showing that *recent* black African immigrant mothers have much better birth outcomes (closer to white). Contradicts your conclusion.

Secondly, you wrote "Moreover, if the cause is some unknown factor in the environment of Black mothers, why did it remain unchanged between 1978 and 1997? That period saw considerable social and economic gains for Black women, particularly those in interracial relationships."

Your first sentence mentions "UNKNOWN" factor(s) in the environment, but your next sentence claims its refutation as if it is KNOWN (social and economic...) If it is "unknown," how do you know it has anything to do with "social and economic" factors (and even specifically ones that remained unchanged in that period)?

Expand full comment
ben's avatar

Oh come on, don't start your sentence with “Nonsense”, how do you expect the conversation to go from there.

That said, “recent African immigrant mothers” aren't a monolith - we have mothers who come to the US to study and tend to be from relatively privileged backgrounds.

We also have others. It'll be interesting to know if the “better outcomes” you refer to is the same between both populations (I suspect the researchers might not separate them).

It's pretty well proven by now that parental welfare is a good predictor of children's welfare

Expand full comment
Chanda Chisala's avatar

You really don't think it occurred to the researchers over the decades to make that distinction that occurred to you in 3 seconds?

Expand full comment
ben's avatar

Peter Frost is an anthropologist, so yes, I do believe he probably has this question in mind. Does he have the data to answer the question? No idea. Does he feel safe asking it? No idea either.

Research carried out on black populations is:

1 - Sorely needed

2 - A dangerous game for white researchers to play in the west. The "racism" accusations fly fast and furiously whenever this topic is broached.

I find it hard to blame the researcher if they choose not to speculate on ideas that potentially may be dangerous to their livelihoods and well-being. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario for them.

I trust that you're also doing similar (and unbiased) research that can throw some more light on these questions that we all ask.

Here's one article I recently read by ToveK, who's an African as well, based on the topic of the post, I believe also involved in some research.

https://open.substack.com/pub/woodfromeden/p/guest-post-the-global-iq-debate-a?r=600lf&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

It's good to hear from you Chanda! I belong to your fan club.

There is no genetic mismatch if both parents are African. Problems arise only if one parent is African and the other is European. In such a case, inconsistencies can develop between the genetic programming of the womb and the genetic programming of the fetus.

The word "if" implies a hypothesis. Personally, I don't believe the cause is unknown. It seems to be genetic, and we may have actually identified the genes in question. Please read my article to the end.

Expand full comment
Chanda Chisala's avatar

Hold on one second... The bad birth outcomes are there for black Americans even without black and white parents. Black-black American parents are still much worse than black-black African immigrant parents. Which says something else is going on.

But your ("genetic mismatch") claim can still be tested empirically. What's your prediction 1. if both parents are mixed race (both parents are like Obama), is that still a genetic mismatch? Equal to just black and white parents? 2. Does your claim predict that a recent black immigrant mother will have bad birth outcomes if she marries a white American?

As for your "if" statement, yes: I know you were not personally saying it is unknown. But you do not counter a statement saying it's unknown by giving a refutation that assumes it's known.

[Edit: And good to see you too, Peter!]

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

We're not communicating on the same wavelength. I'm talking about the difference in birth outcomes between Black mother/White father couples and White mother/Black father couples. This difference remains even when we control for a wide range of socioeconomic variables.

You're talking about the difference in birth outcomes between Black American couples and White American couples. That difference will disappear when we control for even a small number of socioeconomic variables.

Expand full comment
Chanda Chisala's avatar

Yes I know what you're talking about, and I am trying to show you that the gap is persistent in black parents in a way that undermines your explanation for the interracial pattern.

You write "the difference will disappear when we control for even a small number of socioeconomic variables." And I say NO, it won't. It reduces (obviously), but does not "disappear." This is a well-established puzzle in the field.

This is what the paper you cited in your article, to show this "disappearance," actually says:

"Results

For both very low and moderately low birth weight infants, the unadjusted risk associated with parental race showed a gradient of risk, from highest to lowest, for black mother/black father, black mother/white father, white mother/black father, and white mother/white father parents. After adjusting for other risk factors, the odds ratio associated with black mother/black father parents was reduced from 3.37 to 1.73 for very low birth weight infants and from 2.51 to 1.60 for moderately low birth weight infants, BUT BOTH REMAINED ELEVATED." [Emphasis added].

https://journals.lww.com/greenjournal/abstract/1998/11000/risk_of_low_birth_weight_infants_among_black_and.15.aspx

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

I'm surprised we're having this discussion, since you're aware of the gap in cognitive ability between African and Euro Americans.

African American parents have worse birth outcomes because they are, on average, lower in cognitive ability and more prone to doing certain unwise things. This is as true for pregnancy as it is for other areas of life. "Life is an IQ test."

In the above study, the authors adjust the data for several risk factors, including education. Yes, educational level correlates with cognitive ability, but the correlation is imperfect (many people go to college who are not really qualified for college, and many of them graduate, even though they should not graduate).

Expand full comment
Chanda Chisala's avatar

Lol, I've just seen this response now. It's even worse than your other response. No one argues that the difference in birth outcomes is ultimately due to IQ gaps. So you think the ones who have VLBW (very low birth weight) babies did even dumber things than those who have LBW babies?

Secondly, you earlier claimed the paper you cited demonstrates the gap disappears after controls. It did not disappear, in that same paper. So now you're redefining "disappeared" as "it should have disappeared"? Why can't you simply correct your earlier statement to your readers when you find that you may have misread the paper?

Expand full comment
Bazza's avatar

You're suggesting the residual difference (in birth weight) between black mother/white father and white mother black father birth outcomes is too little to support Peter Frost's speculation of a female genetic influence through the womb environment?

Expand full comment
Chanda Chisala's avatar

I am saying if a gap persists with parental black/black, after all said "environmental" controls, and yet this is not directly genetic (given non-persistence in parental black/black immigrants), then persistence in parental black mother/white father, can not implicate direct genetic causation.

Expand full comment
Robin Whittle's avatar

Please see the research cited and discussed at: https://vitamindstopscovid.info/00-evi/.

African Americans generally have lower circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels than White Americans, since their much darker skin absorbs more of the ultraviolet-B light which breaks a bond in a carbon ring of 7-dehydrocholesterol, transforming it into vitamin D3 cholecalciferol. 25-hydroxyvitamin D calcifediol (AKA "calcidiol") is made, primarily in the liver when ingested or UV-B >> skin produced vitamin D3 is hydroxylated on the 25th carbon. This 25-hydroxyvitamin D, circulating in the bloodstream is what is measured in "vitamin D" blood tests.

The kidneys need a level (concentration) of about 20 ng/mL = 50 nmol/L to play their role in regulating calcium-phosphate-bone metabolism, and governments and many doctors are happy with this. However, 50 ng/mL (125 nmol/L = 1 part in 20,000,000 by mass) is required for the proper function of the immune system. Most medical professionals and immunologists do not know this.

Many types of immune cell and some other cell types need a good supply of 25-hydroxyvitamin D to run their intracrine (inside each cell) and paracrine (to nearby cells) signaling systems, which are crucial to each cell's ability to adapt its behavior in response to its changing circumstances. These signaling systems are not known to most medical professionals and immunologists. For a tutorial and links to research: https://vitamindstopscovid.info/02-intracrine/.

These signaling systems are not related to hormonal (endocrine) signaling, which involves a signaling molecule being carried in the bloodstream, and potentially the cerebrospinal fluid, with the level of this affecting the behavior of one or more cell types all over the body.

Vitamin D3 and 25-hydroxyvitamin D do not function as hormones. They are not signaling molecules. A third compound, 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D calcitriol functions as a hormone when the kidneys release it into the bloodstream. This is the sole hormonal function of these three compounds.

In 25-hydroxyvitamin D to calcitriol intracrine signaling, the intracellularly produced calcitriol functions as an intracrine agent, binding to "vitamin D" receptor molecules (really the "calcitriol receptor" molecules) which leads to changes in gene transcription in the nucleus, altering the cell's protein synthesis and so its behavior. Here, calcitriol is acting as an intracrine agent. This production of calcitriol in a cell is only enabled once a cell-type specific condition is detected. The changes in gene expression, and so the changes in cell behavior, also vary from one cell type to the next. Calcitriol as a paracrine agent when intracellularly produced calcitriol diffuses to nearby cells, at local levels well above the 0.05 to 0.1 ng/mL (kidney produced) hormonal background level, affecting nearby cells, also in cell-type specific ways.

This mini-tutorial should help everyone understand how important it is to maintain at least 50 ng/mL circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D. This is generally only possible with vitamin D3 supplementation in quantities, which while small, are 5 or more times what governments and many doctors recommend.

It is common for people with dark or black skin, living far from the equator, to have significantly less circulating 25-hydroxyvitamin D than white-skinned people living alongside them - and the average levels for white-skinned people who do not supplement vitamin D3 and who have not recently had extensive UV-B skin exposure (which damages DNA and so raises the risk of skin cancer) are 15 to 25 ng/mL.

Low 25-hydroxyvitamin D increases the risk of preeclampsia, pre-term birth, sepsis and the later development of autism, ADHD, intellectual disability and schizophrenia in children https://vitamindstopscovid.info/00-evi/#3.2. Likewise neurodegeneration in later life: https://vitamindstopscovid.info/00-evi/#3.3.

There may well be genetic reasons for African American women giving birth on average a week earlier than White women. However, some component of the observed difference would be due to their generally lower 25-hydroxyvitamin D levels.

All this can and should be corrected. See the vitamin D3 supplementation recommendations from New Jersey based Professor of Medicine, Sunil Wimalawansa, according to body weight and obesity status: https://vitamindstopscovid.info/00-evi/#00-how-much.

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

Vitamin D levels are low not only in African Americans but also in other dark-skinned humans. These human groups appear to have adapted accordingly by using this vitamin more efficiently. The following is an excerpt from one of my published articles:

A single UVB exposure produces less vitamin D3 in black subjects than in whites. The difference narrows, however, after liver hydroxylation to 25(OH)D and disappears after kidney hydroxylation to 1,25(OH)2D. The most active form of vitamin D is thereby kept at a constant level regardless of skin color. This may be why nearly half of African Americans are classified as vitamin-D deficient and yet few show signs of calcium deficiency. In fact, this population has less osteoporosis, fewer fractures, and a higher bone mineral density than do Euro-Americans, who generally produce and ingest more vitamin D. The same apparent contradiction emerges from a survey of East African immigrant children in Australia. None had rickets despite very low serum 25(OH)D, with 87% of them having less than 50 nmol/L and 44% less than 25 nmol/L.

These levels are apparently lower for genetic reasons. A study of African Americans found that serum 25(OH)D decreased linearly with increasing African ancestry, the decrease being 2.5-2.75 nmol/L per 10% increase in African ancestry. The study also found that sunlight and diet were 46% less effective in raising these levels among subjects with high African ancestry than among those with low/medium African ancestry.

There have been proposals to target African Americans for vitamin D supplementation, and similar proposals have been made for the Inuit of northern Canada. These proposals, though well-intentioned, may have disastrous effects on both populations. Unlike vitamin D, vitamin D is not water-soluble. If you take too much, you will not excrete it in your urine.

Frost P. (2022) The Problem of Vitamin D Scarcity: Cultural and Genetic Solutions by Indigenous Arctic and Tropical Peoples. Nutrients 14(19):4071. https://doi.org/10.3390/nu14194071

Expand full comment
Eduardo Zugasti's avatar

If I’m understanding the implications of the post correctly—and if biracial individuals born to Black mothers experience worse health outcomes for genetic or biological reasons—then we would expect to see an overrepresentation of those born to White mothers among high achievers too, from sports to academia. That is what we observe. I asked ChatGPT to run the numbers (NBA successful players, High-achieving academics, etx).

However, this overrepresentation appears to have a much simpler explanation.

In the United States, White mother–Black father pairings account for approximately 80% of all Black–White interracial unions. This demographic prevalence naturally produces a far greater number of biracial individuals with White mothers. According to the analysis, roughly 10% to 30% of the observed variance may be due to additional factors—such as cultural or socioeconomic dynamics—but the vast majority stems from this demographic baseline.

In short, the overrepresentation of biracial individuals with White mothers among high achievers is largely a reflection of demographic reality, not necessarily of genetic advantage. I may be missing something, but this seems to contradict the post's approach.

Expand full comment
Chanda Chisala's avatar

Well, "overrepresentation" does not mean "majority" -- not even "vast majority." But neither does it require a genetic causation.

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

This is why we try to rule out alternative causes, notably by controlling for socioeconomic factors.

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

Developmental problems can also arise if a baby is born too late, such as a higher incidence of adolescent obesity. If I'm looking at the big picture (i.e., viability over an entire lifetime, and not just risks at birth), I can't say that one is better than the other.

The following article may be of interest:

"As indicated earlier, few studies have examined how the health of children with white mothers and black fathers compares to that of individuals with black mothers and white fathers. Exceptions are the studies of birth outcomes of black/white biracial children, which indicate that infants with white mothers and black fathers have more favorable outcomes than infants with black mothers and white fathers (Collins and David 1993; Parker 2000). These findings contradict our expectation that children with black mothers and white fathers will be healthier than children with white mothers and black fathers because they grow up in more advantaged households. Whether children with black mothers and white fathers continue to have a health disadvantage relative to children with white mothers and black fathers at older ages and whether this group has disadvantages in other health outcomes remain to be empirically tested."

Choi, K. H., & Reichman, N. E. (2019). The health of biracial children in two-parent families in the United States. Demographic Research, 41, 197-230. https://doi.org/10.4054/DemRes.2019.41.8

Expand full comment
Jake's avatar

As racial demographics, are there general disparities in health outcomes among young mother aged women?

Expand full comment
Peter Frost's avatar

Do you mean the health outcomes for the mother or for the children? Younger women have fewer problems during pregnancy. Strangely enough, there is evidence that children born to younger women have shorter lives. This doesn't seem to be simply a fast life history effect:

"Consistent with prior literature, we find that children born to young and old mothers have worse adult health, are shorter, and have higher mortality than those born to mothers aged 25– 34 years. Controls for maternal education and lifespan overlap wipe out the effect for advanced maternal age up to age 45. The association between young maternal age and negative offspring outcomes, however, is robust to these controls."

Myrskylä M, Fenelon A. (2012). Maternal age and offspring adult health: evidence from the health and retirement study. Demography. 49(4):1231-57. https://doi.org/10.1007/s13524-012-0132-x.

Expand full comment
Elimination Essays's avatar

Great article, many claims for referencing.

Expand full comment
True European's avatar

White women bake their half castes for longer and sacrifice their whole lives for them.

Expand full comment